Drew Strojny is the Founder of Memberful. Memberful is a subscription service that tightly integrates with WordPress and also works with ESPs, Forums, and E-Learning platforms. Drew created Memberful because he couldn’t find a good solution for his WordPress theme business, The Theme Foundry.
Memberful has become a popular choice for publishers that want to add memberships to their WordPress sites. The service manages all subscriptions, uses Stripe for payments, and hides WordPress posts from visitors that aren’t members. Memberful has become so successful that Patreon recently acquired them.
I’ve used Memberful for several years, and it’s also the membership software I chose for Coywolf Pro when I had subscriptions. I reached out to Drew to find out more about him, Memberful, and what the Patreon acquisition means for the future of the service.
We discussed the following topics:
- How Drew transitioned from the NFL to founding Memberful
- How his frustrations with overly complicated systems that were trying to do everything poorly was the catalyst for creating Memberful
- How Drew’s role has changed over time since creating Memberful
- How Memberful evolved to support platforms beyond WordPress
- Reason for choosing GraphQL instead of REST for their API, and how it enables customers to extend the subscription service to other platforms
- The early hurdles that Drew faced with Memberful and how he overcame them
- How the Patreon acquisition happened
- Concerns he had about selling Memberful
- How Drew’s life changed after the acquisition
- A sneak peek at an upcoming feature to Memberful
I hope you enjoy the interview!
Jon Henshaw: I’m here talking with Drew Strojny. He’s the founder of Memberful. And if you’re not familiar with Memberful, it’s a membership service that manages subscriptions and access to behind-the-wall content. And Memberful is also the service that Coywolf uses for its Pro accounts, and access to the private Discourse forum for digital marketers. So thanks for joining me today. How are you?
Drew Strojny: Great. Thanks for having me on Jon. I’m excited to be here.
JH: I’ve been wanting to talk to you for a while and you were busy. And I know when I first reached out to you I think it was Patreon had just, I think, acquired your company or something like that, and you’ve been kind of cranking out the features.
DS: Yeah. So yeah, we got acquired almost a year ago now, and yeah it’s been a whirlwind. And we’ve been really excited to join forces with Patreon, and start increasing the pace of development and improving the product. So yeah, it’s been an exciting time.
JH: That’s great. I know that you and I have similar kind of educational backgrounds and interests. I think you have a degree in Philosophy, and my background is Psychology, and somehow we ended up in the software world. But I think even more interestingly you used to play for the NFL. And so how did you make that transition from playing professional football to actually creating a software company?
DS: Yeah it’s a great question. So when I was playing in the NFL there was a lot of downtime in the off-season to kind of maybe explore different hobbies and interests, and even since I was a kid I’ve always had a really strong interest in computers. And so I’d kind of been playing around with HTML, CSS, and kind of doing that for fun in my spare time, and so it’s kind of a hobby I guess. And when my NFL career wrapped up I was still only 27. I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but I knew that I wanted to start some kind of business. But I always kind of felt like well the computer software stuff is more of a hobby, so I’m not going to do that for my business. I’ll kind of keep that a hobby.
So it started more like a bricks and mortar marketing business out in Boise, Idaho, which is where we moved when I was done playing and we lived there for about five years. And this was back in 2008 to 2010. And one of the things that I kept getting when I was kind of trying to sell this bricks and mortar marketing stuff was everybody kept asking me about websites, and I need this, and I need that, and I need software. And it started getting to the point where it almost seemed absurd that we weren’t doing something there because everybody was asking for it, and I was kind of like well but we’re doing this other thing. So finally we kind of just gave in, and I said you know what? I already know how to do some of this stuff anyway, so let’s kind of start adding it to what we do.
And fast forward a few years later, and then that was the whole thing that we were doing. We ended up getting into WordPress themes, and selling those and started a business there. And then after a few years of the theme business we decided that that needed to be more subscription based, but we weren’t happy with any of the software that was out there for kind of doing recurring payments. So we decided to build something in Memberful for the Theme Foundry. And we thought it was really cool, and we thought other people might like it, so then we kind of opened it up and started making that its own business and things just went from there.
JH: So it sounds like it just kind of evolved based on your client needs. You needed something to handle memberships. And that’s basically how that came about, how Memberful came about?
DS: Yeah. So it was like I was personally very frustrated with the software options that we had for the Theme Foundry. And we were using one of them, and I was just continually frustrated with it. I felt like it was a real poor experience, and had just been telling myself we should do something here, because we could make something a lot better, and eventually just decided to go ahead and do it. And we were able to test it in a live way to start, because we had a business that needed it. So we were able to push a lot of volume through it and feel confident that it was a legit, dependable solution. And so then we decided to open it up to others, and lots of folks loved it too, and then things just kind of kept going from there.
JH: Yeah. I mean, I really don’t remember how long I’ve been a customer. I just know it’s been many years. And it’s funny because what you described was what I was going through just on the consumer end, which is, I mean really quite honestly, I thought everything was just crap. And a lot of it was overthought and had horrible UX, and was trying to do everything. Or looked really spammy, almost like it was made by, and made for, people who want to create spammy communities. And one of the things that really attracted me to Memberful was that you weren’t, at least at the time, and it may have just been because of the fact that you can’t make everything at once, but at least at the time you weren’t trying to do everything. You were trying to do the core things and do them well, without kind of getting in the way of the CMS.
JH: That’s one of the things that I like about Memberful, is that it just kind of seamlessly integrates with WordPress. Even to this day there still aren’t a lot of, I would say, things you need to do in the WordPress admin, because it just kind of works. And even to this day I would say also that when I go to Memberful’s admin it’s also just what I need and it’s pretty efficient, and even with your universal search to kind of find members, or whatever it might be. So is that sort of how you drive the product? I mean, just this idea of minimalism but still having what needs to be there?
DS: Yep. There’s a lot of things going on there. I mean I think from a, I guess, product philosophy, Memberful came into existence because of frustration with overly-complicated systems that were trying to do everything poorly. So from day one we kind of took a stance of we’re going to focus on the membership part of this and make that really great. Make the experience really great for the members so that it just feels seamless, it’s on your website, and it just feels natural and easy to use. And then on the admin side we also wanted it to feel like hey this isn’t some overly-complex thing you need to manage. It’s actually pretty simple. You can see your activity. You can see your members. You can manage the stuff you’re selling. You can get access to all that right in a nice easy-to-use dashboard.
So and whenever we add something we’re always thinking about how can we make this as simple as possible? And sometimes that involves us making some decisions almost for the customer. To say we feel like this is the way you should be doing this, so we’re going to set it up that way and kind of guide you towards that use case. Versus trying to make it a Swiss army knife of you can do everything with this feature. We’re going to say no, this is kind of how we feel it should be used. And that allows us to make it more simple and make it easier to use.
JH: Well I can tell you, as a user, I really appreciate it. As I just said kind of before, I noticed it. That was the thing that actually attracted me to that system, because it wasn’t overly complicated and everything’s done poorly type of approach. So congratulations to you on accomplishing that, and that’s probably why you’ve been so successful with this. I’m curious to know would you consider yourself more of an ideas management-type person, or do you get dirty with the code?
DS: Well, when Memberful first started I was both. I did all the front-end code and design for the product, but that was five years ago or so. These days I’m deeply involved in what’s going on with the product, but I’m not actually coding. So that’s day-to-day discussions about individual decisions we’re making, and ideas that we’re discussing, and progress on features. And just kind of working with the team to make sure that we’re delivering great end features to all of our customers, while at the same time keeping the service really reliable and easy to use. So I’ve kind of transitioned into I don’t code anymore, but that was a really fun time in the product when I was doing that, kind of getting everything started.
JH: Maybe you could try to carve off some side time and do a little R&D if it’s still fun to do. Just so you can be hey I’ve been playing with this, but you know?
JH: The worst-
DS: I do get to touch it here and there every once in a while, but it’s become less and less now that it’s kind of a less-efficient use of my time as the team has gotten bigger and we’ve gotten more ambitious with what we’re working on.
JH: Yeah. No, I completely get that. So it was originally made for WordPress, but it has been kind of built out to be able to support other platforms. I had mentioned at the very beginning that I use it for discourse, because you have it made so that you can log into that. And I’ll ask you about that in a second, but it now supports course builders, and other discussion boards, and then actually a lot of other CMSs. Was that something that kind of also evolved? Or did you kind of know from the beginning that if this is successful then I could probably make this work on a bunch of different platforms? How did that come about?
DS: I’d say it was a little bit of both. When we first started it was more like let’s build something that works for us, and we happened to be using WordPress so that was a good starting point. But at the same time we thought about those architectural decisions that we weren’t going to make it too locked into Word Press. And then like let’s do this with the WordPress, but let’s build it in a way that it could be used in a lot of different ways. So and then as we got into it it became more clear. We bootstrapped the company, so we didn’t take any outside investment or anything like that. So it became clear with the resources of a bootstrap company that we needed to really focus on one thing, and trying to do a more vertical solution like where we took on more jobs. We tried to make it a CMS, and we tried to make it a discussion forum and things like that. It just felt like that was going to distract us, and we weren’t going to build anything really compelling if we were trying to do all those things.
So it became more obvious that we should just be really focused on hey let’s build something that really solves its use case around membership, and then just make it great at integrating with all the tools that people already like to use. So that as a customer you kind of feel like hey I can rely on Memberful to handle this really key important part of my business, while at the same time I know it’s going to integrate well with my favorite tools that I already like to use. And that makes me feel like hey I’ve got a really de-centralized, full-tolerant system that is leveraging the best of all these third-party tools, and Memberful’s helping me tie those together to run my business.
JH: So it’s obvious to me that a lot of the decisions, if not all of the decisions, that have been made for it have been very thoughtful, and you want to be reliable and that type of thing. I’m really curious to know what got you, or the team, to choose GraphQL so early on? Because you’ve used that since the very beginning, instead of the REST API, for being able to connect to the service and logins and that type of thing. Why did you choose that, and with it being so new at the time, instead of something like REST?
DS: Yeah. And actually Jon, we were using kind of a more standard API for the first few years. We transitioned to GraphQL about 18 months ago or so.
JH: Oh okay. All right. For some reason I thought you were using it for longer than that.
DS: Yeah. We started with kind of just a more basic Rails. We used Ruby on Rails, so we kind of just had the stock standard Rails API. But we found that it just wasn’t very efficient, and there were a lot of … GraphQL looked like a really good fit for how our customers were using the API, and where we wanted the API to go. We liked the fact that it kind of documents itself and was easy to work with, for us and for customers. So we just kind of did an analysis of the stuff that was out there, and we felt like this was a really good fit, and we’ve been happy with it so far for sure.
JH: I really liked it, at least the developers I’ve worked with have also liked it. And one of the things that’s been really nice about that, and your use of OAuth 2, is I’ve been able to essentially extend Memberful’s service to other sites and other services. So for example, you have some things that are already built in, and you use Webhooks for that. So when people go to Coywolf’s private forum it’s on Discourse. And they kind of automatically log in. Or if they aren’t logged in at all they can log in via Memberful and then bam they’re in. But one of the neat things that I’ve been able to do with it is I’m building just a web app on a completely different domain that is all custom LAMP. And I’m able to essentially use the same login of the Pro members who all have accounts on Memberful, and they can log in there too.
So I love how that works. I love the architecture of it because I can extend it to anywhere I want, and I can still maintain just sort of one subscription service, one membership. Now one question I’ve been really wanting to ask you about that is how can, or is it even possible, to have something like I just described on two installs of WordPress? So for example, it kind of started with WordPress, and anybody who has any experience with Memberful knows that it’s deeply integrated into it. It uses the user account system on WordPress, kind of syncs with those things. Is it possible to actually run that on say two different WordPress sites? Is it just waiting for somebody to, since it’s open source, the plug-ins, is it waiting for somebody to write that capability, or is that not possible?
DS: Well it would be possible, but there’s a few user interactions that would be sub-optimal in that scenario. For example, one of the things we do with the WordPress integration is we automatically sign the member in when they first sign up, so that when they visit the site, if you’ve connected to WordPress, it feels really seamless, as in I just completed my order and now all of the sudden I’m logged in and I’m on the site. Trying to do that for two sites, with the way WordPress’s sign-in system works, would be sub-optimal for the user experience. Because you actually have to kind of go to that site to make that happen, and trying to do that with multiple sites would be problematic.
So there’s a few reasons why we don’t support that use case, and they’re mainly around the experience starts to degrade as you add sites, and even two sites. It doesn’t work as well. Now there’s certainly ways you could do it on your own if you were kind of building a custom flow. Where you said look I want people to be signed into this automatically, but then when they click this link and go to this other site I want them to get signed in too. And you can make that with our API. You can make that really seamless and kind of do it, but we just felt like that use case was not mainstream enough among our customer base for us to build that into the plug-in that’s kind of a standard flow.
JH: Yeah. It’s totally an edge case for sure. I mean, and really I’m asking just out of personal interest because I’m doing some experimentation, well I’ll call it that, on Coywolf, where I’m using a bunch of different new TLDs. And so I’ve got .pro and .news, and I’m going to soon do .reviews, and I have a couple of other things. And so I’m always thinking about hmm, wouldn’t it be interesting if I could extend it over here, and hide this, or show this content, based on whether or not they’re logged in or not?
And it sounds like what you’re saying is it’s a super edge case to try to achieve the same functionality on two WordPress installs. But in the same way that you could do a login on Discourse, or something else like that, it is possible to potentially write something either into functions, or a plug in or whatever, where you could at least do some type of recognition that oh this person’s actually logged into Memberful here. And if they are then you might be able to do something on the surface, but nothing as deeply integrated as sort of the core site that Memberful is installed on. Does that sound about right?
DS: Yeah. So it’s not that you couldn’t do it, it’s that Memberful works better when it has a default sign-in app associated with it. And if you weren’t using WordPress you could make that, like let’s say you got rid of your WordPress and you went with your custom app, you could make that custom app be like WordPress, and make that kind of the default system where people automatically get signed in and whatnot. But it works best when there’s just one of those so you don’t have multiple, like someone automatically gets signed into this systems that it’s interacting with, because then it starts to get weird for the user.
JH: Yeah. Well now I have a rabbit hole I want to go down with a developer.
DS: Yeah. If you want to play around.
JH: You’ve got to do this, and yeah.
DS: If you want to play around with it, if you turn off the WordPress installation maybe on a test site or something. If you turn that off and then you set up a new API key, with OAuth and all of those things, you’ll see an option appear that will let you say hey make this my primary sign-in site, like redirect to it and try to do the authentication. So yeah, if you want to play around with that you can totally do it. And we do have some customers that are doing that, where it’s like I’m not using WordPress, and I’m using this purely with my custom app or something else, but I want it to act in a similar way to the way the WordPress integration acts.
JH: Well and I will say this, for those who are listening. Memberful is awesome with or without WordPress.
JH: I mean, as far as in my experience it’s a great subscription management system. It just happens to have started with, and also to this day works really well with WordPress, which of course is why I started using it to begin with. So my next question is it’s kind of more entrepreneurial. There’s a lot of entrepreneurs who are part of Coywolf. And so I’m curious to know, especially since you said it’s bootstrapped, which is something I’m very familiar with myself with things I’ve done. What are some of the early hurdles you faced, and how were you able to kind of overcome them?
DS: Yeah, that’s a good question. So, as I mentioned, we started the Theme Foundry. That was our kind of first online business. And our timing was really great with that business because we started in 2008, 2009, and that was right when everybody was realizing that they needed a website. And WordPress was kind of a go-to solution, and was kind of peak popularity I would say at that time. So we got really lucky with the timing there, and saying hey this theme business could be pretty big, and this seems to be a growing market, and we did well with timing there. So that business in that 2010 to 2012 time frame was doing really well and was throwing off lots of extra cash. And so times were good, and we felt like the cash that that was providing, why not make a bet here and invest it in trying a new product and see where that goes?
So because that business was doing so well we had the confidence to take some of those proceeds and invest them in a new idea. So and one of the ways I managed that was to just say look we’re going to spend X. We’re going to spend one year getting this off the ground. And we’re just going to see where it goes, and then see if it can kind of sustain itself. And we were able to hit those marks of hey we’ve got it built, we’re going to launch it. And now it’s been launched, and within a year it was breaking even to then profitable, and then we kind of just kept grinding at it, keeping it profitable.
JH: Were there times when you’re like “I don’t think this is going to work.” Or was it always just enough of it was promising as far as who was using it, and the growth and stuff? I mean were there times where you were kind of concerned?
DS: Yeah. There were times when things kind of worrying … It definitely wasn’t straight up and to the right. There were times when we kind of would just not go anywhere for a few months, or revenue would kind of stall out a little bit. But it was because we were so lean it was literally myself and one developer, and we were keeping a tight lid on the costs of everything. So and I knew the promise, and I knew how much our customers loved it. And there seemed to be some really good word of mouth building just in the general software community about the product. So the confidence was high throughout, which made it easier to say oh look revenue hasn’t gone up for a couple months, but we’re still feeling good about where this product is headed. And then, as time went on, it started getting more and more profitable. Then we were able to start hiring more people, and then confidence kept just kind of building as we got more customers and revenue started going up.
JH: I like that you approached it with that “let’s not throw too many people and too much money at this.” “Let’s keep things kind of under control, but stay optimistic and realistic about it.” I think that sometimes people get a little overly ambitious, and even just in their expectations. And when they don’t see that immediate growth it’s either frustrating, or they have to make drastic changes or whatever. But keeping things sort of steady and under control, and not freaking out when things kind of plateau for a little bit …
JH: It’s just the reality of anything like this. If I had to take a guess, I think a lot of people don’t have the patience for that I mean. And I think, like I said, their expectations are a lot higher. But what you said really resonates with me as something very similar to what I have been through, and how I approach things still to this day, which is don’t overdo it. Know that this is more of a long game you know, instead of …
JH: Instead of something that has to have immediate traction. And everything you’ve described, that is kind of what I think I’ve kind of observed with the company, which obviously eventually did grow to a really good place. And, like you said, you were able to finally start to hire more people and do more with the company, which then kind of it’s, I guess, led to the deal with Patreon. I mean, how did that come about?
DS: Yeah that’s a good question. So throughout the process of building Memberful, selling it was not something that was ever really on our radar. So the whole situation, and ultimate acquisition from Patreon, was kind of out of left field. We weren’t actively looking to sell the company. We were growing. We had been growing really well. This was last year. In 2017 we had a great year, and the momentum was really strong going into 2018. And they just reached out to me, someone from Patreon, just kind of to say hello and chat. I ended up flying out there to meet with the team. And I was just really impressed with the caliber of people at that organization, and how much they cared about the creators. And ultimately people doing stuff online, which we call them customers, at Patreon they call them creators, but it’s one and the same.
But they really care deeply about supporting people. I mean, people like you, Jon, that are building a real business and having fun, and doing what they love, and building a community. And being out there and talking to them, you could just really tell that that’s what was important to Patreon too. And obviously that’s what’s important to us as a business as well, is supporting customers like you, and all of our customers, with a great tool that lets them do what they love and make money doing it online.
So those conversations went really well, and I feel like we really saw eye-to-eye on why we were doing this, not just hey there’s a strategic business fit here too. It was more like we both looked at the situation in the same way, and in a very creator/customer-first way. So and I don’t think, if we hadn’t been able to check that box, I don’t think it would have gone anywhere, because like I said it wasn’t something we were pursuing. We weren’t looking to sell the company. But because the team and the company was such a good fit in that regard, we were open to seeing what they had in mind from kind of joining forces.
And the more we looked at it we thought that it was a great opportunity to invest more in Memberful, in a way that we wouldn’t have been able to do if we were bootstrapping. So while we were gaining momentum and doing really well, we still would have had to move more slowly and probably add less features than we’d like, and just kind of build the company over a longer period. Which would have been okay, but we saw this is a great fit. The companies were a great fit, and then strategically it was a good fit, and they were willing to commit to investing in the Memberful team and the Memberful product, which is really exciting for us too. So it turned out to be kind of a win-win-win, and that’s why we’re …
JH: It does sound like a really good fit, from what you described. I’d like to know entrepreneur-to-entrepreneur, even with everything checking the boxes, and being really positive and coming out of the blue, and feeling serendipitous type of thing, were you still worried about selling it? I mean, were you worried about somehow losing control of it at all? I mean, because it doesn’t seem like you have, but I mean before that. That’s something that still would have been on my mind, like this just almost seems too good to be true, and I’m worried about what it’s going to really be like on the other side.
DS: Yeah. No, it’s a good question. And I don’t think, I mean, having going through it, and I would think anyone going through it, I don’t think you ever shake that. And ultimately for me, where it comes from a place of wanting to make sure that our customers are taken care of. Because to me the worst scenario is that something happens where everybody that’s depending on this solution and really loves using it suddenly doesn’t get to use it. And to me that’s my nightmare of what I’d want to avoid. But with every conversation, and every step we took with Patreon, it was super clear that they cared deeply, just as deeply as I did about those things. And that’s why we thought it was a good fit.
So I don’t think you’re going to shake some kind of apprehension around an acquisition when you are turning over control over the business. But I think if you can gain a level of confidence and trust with the folks that you’re kind of entering into this deal with, then you’re going to feel good enough that you can say you know what? I can’t rule that out completely, but I’m 99.9% sure and I feel really good about the people that we’re going to do this with.
JH: How did your life, day-to-day as it relates to Memberful, change after the acquisition?
DS: Yeah good question. So it didn’t change much, and that was another thing. One of the things we talked about a lot with Patreon, before we did the deal, is that we weren’t planning to change much. We were going to invest more in Memberful, but we were going to let Memberful be an independent subsidiary of Patreon. And so it was more like we had a whole new team to meet and get comfortable with, and interact with and learn about their processes, and go out to San Francisco and spend time with them. And so there was all of that, but at the core we were still doing the same things. We just had some more resources to like hey okay, now we’re going to hire a few folks, and we’ve kind of planned for this. And so it was business as usual, plus meeting and greeting, and getting to know the organization that we’re now a part of.
JH: Cool. I mean that sounds like the best-case scenario actually, I mean the way you describe it.
DS: Yeah. No, it was and has been fantastic, and the folks at Patreon are amazing. And they’ve been super supportive, and we couldn’t be happier with joining forces.
JH: You should totally write a review for Patreon. I think it’s like you sound like a very happy customer, even though you’re part of the team now.
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: So last thing I wanted to ask you was I saw that you’re beta testing Discord innovation, which is great. I’m curious to know are there any other big new features that you’re working on that the listeners might be interested in? And of course nobody will tell anybody – this is all between us and the listeners – that you wouldn’t mind telling us about?
DS: Yeah. No, that’s a great question Jon. So one of the things that I can give you a little sneak preview on is that, I’m sure you’re aware of this. But when we first started with Memberful, one of the features that Memberful delivers is transactional email. And that you get kind of notifications about your subscription expiring, you get receipts, you get all these things around those transactions. And when we started we wanted to get something kind of functional and bare bones in place that worked. So our emails are just like they’re plain text emails, which has worked really well for a long time. But we’re pretty past due upgrading that experience to something more presentable. So that when you’re sending out an invoice, or you’re sending out communication to your members, that it looks more branded, and cleaner, and nicer and professional. So building on top of the branding features that we released earlier this year, that I’m sure you’re aware of-
JH: I’m using it, yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
DS: Yeah. Yeah. So building on top of that, we’re highly likely to be launching some improved email templates here in towards the end of the year that will kind of build on top of that, and feel like hey now I’m sending these really professional-looking emails to my members. Because we feel like it’ll add some real polish to the whole experience, which we think we’re excited about.
JH: Yeah. No, I think that’s going to be great. I am curious to know are you using some sort existing library? Are you writing sort of the tool to do that from scratch?
DS: So we’re going to be designing the templates in the same way that we kind of have looked at other problems. We’re going to try to solve a lot of it for you, so that a lot of it just works and it’s not something you have to spend a lot of time with, other than potentially inputting something custom in a particular email, like hey in this email I want to say this at the beginning. And so right now we’re going to plan to make these pretty streamlined and easy with less customization, but you’ll still have the opportunity to kind of put your custom whatever you want within the post templates.
JH: Yeah. So I’ll be able to add my logo, pick my colors, that type of thing, which is kind of what you rolled out earlier for the login.
JH: Does that sound about right?
JH: Yeah. I really like that. That’s something where with my last company, Raven Tools, if I could have gone back and done it over I would have focused more on background processes, and solving people’s problems, versus trying to give the users the most advanced options.
JH: And I think that the way that you’ve gone about it, and it sounds like you’re still going about it, is really the best way forward. I think more than ever, particularly people who are creating these communities, people who are marketing whatever it might be, they just don’t have the time and they don’t have the skills for everything. And they don’t have the resources or money to pay everybody to do everything for them. And so be able to have a service that makes really good decisions and thoughtful decisions for them, with sort of the added bonus of here’s some basic things that I know that most people know how to do, which is again upload an image and pick your colors that match your brand. I think that makes a lot of sense so. Hey thanks for taking the time to let me interview. I mean I learned a lot, and learned a lot about something I’m a huge fan for, but maybe I’m too big of a fan. I don’t know. Maybe I need to bring down my enthusiasm a little bit.
DS: But no, I really appreciate you having me on, Jon. It was great talking. I know it was a little bit overdue. And I’m just really excited to get the chance to chat, and it’s been great hearing about how you’re using Memberful, and just really enjoyed it.